AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality

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27.04.2022 20:20
avatar  DigitalPipes ( gelöscht )
#1 AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
Di
DigitalPipes ( gelöscht )

Dear all,

After leaving some thoughts on this type of keyboards in the shoutbox (wrong move, Paolo! Those messages disappear after a while!), I would like to share my personal experience. All my three instruments have AWK keyboards: the Sonus 60 has bamboo AWK. On the Unico are boxwood and ebony. Finally, on the Concerto, they are covered in acrylic.

First remark: for the first two, Sonus and Unico, the keyboards came with out-of-the-standard keystroke depth. It never came to mind that I had to request a specific keystroke depth value. While the Unico approaches 7 mm (like an ancient Antegnati organ :D), the Sonus has the opposite problem, with the keystroke depth originally trespassing 9 mm. For the Concerto, I gave a min and max value to be respected, and it came smaller than the minimum.

Second remark: the keystroke deepens with usage. The key is stopped at its bottom level by a layer of felt (and here, good luck with who is mounting the felt in the factory - and what thickness they use (see remark 1). That's not the end of the story. The keystroke deepens when used for a while. My Sonus reached 11 mm of keystroke depth a few weeks ago and became unplayable. I had already raised the problem some time ago with the dealer. Although the instrument still enjoys a standard warranty, it is unfortunately located in Eastern Europe, and nobody can help me. I should have unmounted half of the organ to replace the felt and tilted the keyboards up. Excellent, good luck with that forest of cables inside the instrument. I bought some 2 mm felt, cut into tapes and surgically placed it over the existing one. Luckily, the problem was solved, but what a pain for some keyboards whose cost approached 4000 euros.

Third remark: the core of the keys. Wood? Nein, it is (from what I can see) HDF. I understand that HDF grants stability, and it is immune to temperature and humidity fluctuation, but so is spruce, which is used even in the cheapest pianos produced in Indonesia. If KAWAI can sell a piano with natural spruce wooden keyboards (88 keys) along with the real acoustic piano for 8000 euros, shouldn't we expect the same keyboard core for three keyboards at that price? I understand face value pricing procedures but, seriously! Not that UHT does any better, price-wise. The demand generates its own supply, said Keynes, and this is a perfect example.

Fourth remark: there is no way to keep the keys horizontally aligned. The mechanics of AWK are straightforward: no springs, tuning screws, nothing. Just a lever and a magnet. Great idea indeed, and the tracker touch is greatly enhanced by this! But what about the keys going out of alignment and not having the slightest way to putting them back to place? Raised this issue with Viscount got the look of mercy :D My Sonus and Unico look like a 50 years old tracker organ that has never seen any maintenance.

Fifth remark: acrylic cover. Very nice, super polished. One problem: when playing, all the sweat and natural grease of the hands cumulates on the key surface and the keyboard quickly turns into an ice-skating rink! The reason why I could not shoot the Cortege et Litanie video last weekend was because of this. So finally bought some super fine sandpaper (1000) and sanded the keys. Took me two hours of work to achieve a decent result, and then finally, I managed to record the audio sample I shared here.

Ok, this post turned into a rant, I supposed I was storing some deep customer dissatisfaction. AWK are, tracker-touch-wise, the best keyboards out there. With some improvement, they could be the best organ keyboards, period. But so could be Physis, and its users are proving this extensively.


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27.04.2022 21:15
#2 RE: AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
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Intonationsmeister

Auch meine AWK machte ein paar Probleme. Bei der Auslieferung war der Druckpunkt auf Maximum eingestellt, so dass beim schnellen loslassen der Taste die Magnete aufeinander schlugen was bei schnellen Spielen zu heftigen Klappergeräuschen führte. Das wurde durch einen Besuch vom Servicetechniker behoben. Kurze Zeit später gab es einige Tasten die erst sehr stark beim Loslassen nachfederten und dann später mit Tonaussetzern den Geist aufgaben. Der Grund für dieses Verhalten waren Gummihülsen auf den Metallstäben der Tastenführung die beim Spielen mit der Zeit nach oben wanderten, um dann schließlich ganz abzufallen. Auch das Problem konnte gelöst werden. Ich habe von Kisselbach Gummiringe aus anderem Material bekommen die besser halten. Nur das Auswechseln ist eine ziemliche Fummelige Angelegenheit. Für Manual 3 und 2 bekommt man es gerade noch hin, bei Manual 1 braucht man einen 2. Mann weil die Tastaturen hochgeklappt werden müssen. Ich habe die Anschlagtiefe meiner AWK mal gemessen. Alle Tasten lösen bei 6mm aus und verstummen bei 3mm.

Gloria Concerto 355cc

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27.04.2022 21:15
#3 RE: AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
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Thank you for your practical insights; it's a good counterpoint to all those marketing videos where everything is just perfect, and of course it can't be in real life..

Zitat von DigitalPipes im Beitrag #1
...For the Concerto, I gave a min and max value to be respected, and it came smaller than the minimum.
Second remark: the keystroke deepens with usage.

Seems like they were planning ahead this time, eh? ;)
But it's nice to know that the problem can actually be solved. And if i understood you correctly, you managed to do it without opening up everything. Did you use glue (or something else) to keep the new felt strip in place?

Zitat
Third remark: the core of the keys. Wood? Nein, it is (from what I can see) HDF. I understand that HDF grants stability, and it is immune to temperature and humidity fluctuation, but so is spruce, which is used even in the cheapest pianos produced in Indonesia.

When I heard the fibreboard solution praised as an innovation, I wondered what kept them from using wood. UHT seem to use it, and if that were a problem, they wouldn't still be able to sell their keyboards. Did you consider/try out UHT? I suppose they are even more expensive, though =/

Zitat
So finally bought some super fine sandpaper (1000) and sanded the keys.

.. and all that at a time when we worry about microplastics :D
But I'm sitting in a glass house myself; just some hours ago i produced a small mountain of delrin flakes when trying to replace one of my spinet's plectra (seven was my lucky number today, but at least DuPont will be happy)

Zitat
Ok, this post turned into a rant

I think it's important to read about those products from the users' perspective. So thanks again for sharing. And in the end, if you picked AWK for a third time, there must also have been significant points in favour. Ultimately, some choice must be made, and optimization problems are always hard if there are many dimensions.


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27.04.2022 21:26
#4 RE: AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
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Intonationsmeister

Die AWK ist neben UHT immer noch das Maß der Dinge was das Spielgefühl angeht. UHT werden laut Kisselbach nicht in Concerto Modelle eingesetzt. Was mich etwas erstaunt ist der Umstand das immer noch Probleme auftreten. Meine waren vor 7 Jahren noch die ersten Modelle. Man sollte meinen das nach dieser Zeit alle Kinderkrankheiten behoben sind.

Gloria Concerto 355cc

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27.04.2022 21:32
avatar  Flauten
#5 RE: AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
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Vielen Dank für diesen ausführlichen Beitrag zu den AWK-Klaviaturen.
Eigentlich war für mch klar, dass ich im Falle einer neuen Orgel mich für AWK entscheiden würde, aber nun?
Jetzt bin ich erst mal ratlos . . .

Trotzdem nochmal vielen Dank für die klaren Worte und den offenenen und ehrlichen Erfahrungsbericht!

Mit herzlichem Gruß

Flauten


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27.04.2022 21:40
#6 RE: AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
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Zitat von SaintSernin im Beitrag #4
Man sollte meinen das nach dieser Zeit alle Kinderkrankheiten behoben sind.

Ich habe schon in einigen Präsentations-Videos (allerdings nicht bei Viscount) gesehen, wie sich die Tastaturen beim Spielen in der Mitte biegen und nach unten federn -- da hatte ich auch ein paar "man sollte meinen"-Momente und hab mich gefragt, ob die Leute das vor dem Hochladen nicht sehen; wenn sich die Tastatur biegt, wirkt es sofort billig..
Aber vielleicht ist der Druck, solche Kinderkrankheiten zu behandeln, gar nicht so groß, wenn man sieht, dass sich das Produkt auch so schon gut verkauft =/


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27.04.2022 21:51
#7 RE: AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
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Danke auch meinerseits für den hochinteressanten wenn auch etwas deprimierenden Erfahrungsbericht.
Auch ich war jedesmal höchst angetan, wenn ich AWK ausprobierte; mich störten eher die ein wenig unsauber verarbeiteten Ecken und Kanten, obwohl sich das über die Jahre deutlich gebessert hat.

Nun aber frage ich mich ebenso wie Paolo: Warum nicht gleich Holz?

Wir hatten darüber vor Zeiten eine Diskussion im Forum; wenn ich mich recht entsinne, blieb die Frage, warum die Hersteller nicht unisono zu Holzkernklaviaturen wechselten, offen. Mindestens kam es zu keiner unbestechlich stringenten Antwort. Der Fräsemaschine dürfte es egal sein, ob sie MDF oder Holz zurechtschneidet. Die Frage der Tastenauflage scheint mir im Vergleich zur "Kern"-Frage eher sekundär: Eine gute Kunststoffauflage ist möglicherweise qualitativ gleichauf mit Knochen oder Holz, vielleicht sogar besser.

Die Preisgestaltung bei Holzkernklaviaturen hat wahrscheinlich mehr Spielraum, als Hersteller derzeit einräumen. Solange solche Klaviaturen als Extra gehandelt werden, wird man auch fantastische Zuschläge für dieses Ausstattungsmerkmal fordern können. Die Gesetze des Marktes wurden ja bereits weiter oben erwähnt...


Ich verkaufe meine Orgel, eine Gloria Concerto 234 Trend DLX. Bei Interesse bitte PN oder Mail.

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27.04.2022 21:53
#8 RE: AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
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Intonationsmeister

Also durchbiegen tut sich da nichts. Insgesamt sind AWK sehr stabil gebaut.

Gloria Concerto 355cc

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27.04.2022 22:00
avatar  DigitalPipes ( gelöscht )
#9 RE: AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
Di
DigitalPipes ( gelöscht )

I forgot the sixth remark: the are incredibly noisy.

Zitat von Gemshorn im Beitrag #7

Wir hatten darüber vor Zeiten eine Diskussion im Forum; wenn ich mich recht entsinne, blieb die Frage, warum die Hersteller nicht unisono zu Holzkernklaviaturen wechselten, offen.


The material cost between MDF/HDF and spruce is huge. But also the price of the keyboards is HUGE!

Zitat von Flauten im Beitrag #5
Vielen Dank für diesen ausführlichen Beitrag zu den AWK-Klaviaturen.
Eigentlich war für mch klar, dass ich im Falle einer neuen Orgel mich für AWK entscheiden würde, aber nun?
Jetzt bin ich erst mal ratlos . . .




The feeling that AWK gives when playing is still unsurpassed. But the drawbacks are really inacceptable.


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27.04.2022 22:01
#10 RE: AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
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Ich hatte das in einigen Johannus-Videos gesehen -- da kann es aber gut sein, dass sich das in der Zwischenzeit auch verbessert hat. Die Vivaldi gibt es ja z.B. schon eine Weile lang. Aber ich war irgendwie schockiert, dass ein Instrument für über 10 Riesen (also nix, was man aus Versehen kauft) eine labberige Tastatur haben kann (=


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27.04.2022 22:06
#11 RE: AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
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Intonationsmeister

Für Johannus Orgeln ist meines Wissens keine AWK erhältlich. Sie ist den Viscount Modellen vorbehalten.

Gloria Concerto 355cc

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27.04.2022 22:06
avatar  DigitalPipes ( gelöscht )
#12 RE: AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
Di
DigitalPipes ( gelöscht )

And I also think that maybe they also come in the wooden version. This picture is taken from the website of one Italian reseller of Hauptwerk where the AWK are called Schwindler:

AWK with solid wood.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)


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27.04.2022 22:36
avatar  Opus121
#13 RE: AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
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After 1 year and 4 months I can report nothing negative about my AWK keyboards. The feeling of play is still like the first day.


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29.04.2022 11:34
avatar  ahlborn
#14 RE: AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
ah

I have owned my Sonus 40 (with AWK keyboards) since 2014, and I must say that despite daily use they have remained very stable.
Of course, after the first year of use the keyboard showed some irregularities in the height of the keys (this phenomenon is also found in new pianos), but nothing exaggerated.
I therefore took the opportunity to realign all the keyboards after one year (calibrated paper thicknesses are used, exactly as in the pianos) and exactly adjust the weight of the keys (148 gr in the first octave, and gradually scaling up to 134 in the highest octave. ).
Since then the keyboards have remained stable.
I noticed that in summer they become a little lighter by a few grams (verified) and in winter they return to their original weight. The phenomenon can have several explanations (perhaps in summer the wood increases in volume and the keys move away from the magnets, or perhaps the heat decreases the magnetic force of the neodymium magnets, although I don't believe much in the latter possibility).
The felt used in my AWK is of the hard type, and the lunge has remained stable over the years.
I didn't seem to notice poor workmanship, in fact, the cut is practically perfect (I suspect they use CNC milling machines).
Certainly after a few years, the most used keys began to wear out slightly on the surface but it is the exact same phenomenon that is found in wooden keyboard pipe organs and also in the harpsichord.
I don't know if Luca Panetti also builds a version with spruce keys, but it is likely that the photo shown by Paolo also has HDF keys: my keyboards have unpainted HDF keys and from a distance it looks like wood. In some versions I have seen dark painted HDF.


So I personally am quite satisfied with my AWKs, but I have no doubt that Paolo (or other organists) may have had problems.

On the other hand, I was very disappointed with the Fatar TP60LR keyboards than on the Sonus 60.
In my opinion, the quality of the TP 60 has dropped considerably over the years.

At one time these keyboards (when Ahlborn used them in the Hymnus series) had all the metal frame (the black one), they were solid, really professional.
Now to reduce costs they have replaced the black plastic frame, and although they have added reinforcement ribs, the overall strength has decreased (they flex).
I solved this behavior very well with some work, but I would have preferred that the Fatar had maintained a higher standard.
The keys have an "Ivory touch" finish that has completely worn out after less than a year, making the keys much rougher, with a very cheap plastic feel.
Hymnus organs (even without Ivory feel) had a much better resin quality than this.
Even Viscount keyboards (which are custom TP8s) have much higher resin quality. Here of course it is not Viscount's fault but Fatar's.
Unfortunately, the times in which the factory was managed by Lino Ragni have passed; now the son seems more interested in traveling the world and tasting the typical dishes of restaurants all over the world (as you can see on his twitter profile), rather than following the factory seriously.
It's a shame: there really seems to be no intention of continuing the factory: increasingly poor products, few innovations in recent years, practically non-existent customer service, very long order fulfillment times (up to four months for standard TP60s).

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29.04.2022 12:34
#15 RE: AWK Keyboards and standardised product quality
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Thanks; I think that info is very helpful.

Zitat von ahlborn im Beitrag #14
I noticed that in summer they become a little lighter by a few grams (verified) and in winter they return to their original weight. The phenomenon can have several explanations (perhaps in summer the wood increases in volume and the keys move away from the magnets, or perhaps the heat decreases the magnetic force of the neodymium magnets, although I don't believe much in the latter possibility)
The magnetic field strength won't change much due to summer/winter air temperature, exactly. The wood probably takes in a little humidity and changes shape slightly.

Zitat
On the other hand, I was very disappointed with the Fatar TP60LR keyboards than on the Sonus 60.
...
Now to reduce costs...

Well, maybe in the future, plastic won't be the cheap alternative.. I wonder if Silbermann (any of them) or CC would have said "oh, let's replace that sturdy connection by cheap plastic". But if you control a big share of the market and aren't worried too much about reputation, i suppose it's an option =/


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